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Toxaz

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Reply with quote  #31 
By the way, Baruk published the road map some time ago, there are many intresting information about future of project including magic[smile]  you can find it here:
http://forum.wargameproject.com/post/roadmap-7419556?trail=15
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Baruk

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Reply with quote  #32 
Herystofanes, I like some of your ideas. Actually, they have much in common with our own thoughts.

Magic.

Casting invisibility on units, making illusion armies, dispelling, spell shields, mage specializations - these items are on the list.
Mist spell is interesting too. I thought about such kind of spell but in regard with Dark Ambassador, who could have something like Veil of Darkness spell (fog of war can not be removed, everyone is blind in that spot).[biggrin]

Intercept.

I would not give active intercept to all of the stacks. But we have a concept of commanders. As you might have noticed Dark Side has Orc Commander unit, which allows making changes to stack formation. Using the same notion of commanding units, we might implement a 'tactician' skill, which would allow giving special commands to the unit's army (or the armies around). We already have similar mechanics with Siege Master skill - unit gives attacking bonuses to catapults and allows for additional options (fire bomb, throw corpse - not implemented yet!).

I think we'll go with this approach. Individual units will grant you advanced intercept options.

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Ganeleon

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Reply with quote  #33 
The idea with an advanced interception provided by commanders is great. It will give the Knights, champions and orc commanders another usage tactics.

By my opinion we should equip the mage with the pair of strategic spells and some combat spell (some kind of lightning bolt, but not so deadly as Dark Emperor's). Fireball is good for a strategic spell and the illusion is also interesting. Ii would be good to have the oportunity to choose by yourself which spell he will start to study. Also it would be nice to have the levels of spells. Later it can be developed to the mage specialization.

Also I have an idea about the simple implementation of the "network game" (I used to call it "fast game"). In case you will just give the ability in the game setup to set the "Turn limit (days per player):" not to days but to hours and minutes. For example 10 or 15 minutes. Then together with the implemented already save game autorefresh it will give the ability to play some evening session. Just please make the timer in the battle server to show also the minutes remaining to auto defeat.
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Toxaz

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Reply with quote  #34 
I wanted to write more about this in the theme of a fast game in weekend, but I had a lack of time.
I think it would be better to realize it's not like some limited time per turn, but as well as it is in chess: you have some time in all game. And how much time you spend on turn - your business. You can spend 80% of time on several of key turns or 5% of time on 10-20 turns. 
I think this is a better approach for one simple reason: the moves are different.. I'm not even talking about the fact that in the beginning you need much less time, even in the middle of the party; moves at all are very different to each other on time spending and giving an equal limited amount of time per turn is not quite right. Moves without extensive combat operations requires much less time.
Since the game can be tightened is necessary to provide two things: a sudden run out of time, and what if one of the players will not be able to play more?
The first problem can be solved quite simply. In chess, it is called the Fischer clock or Fisher control. In fact it is the same that offers Ganeleon only without reservation that all the time per turn should be spent in one turn.
So, lets suppose you have a 10 starting minute + 3-4 minutes per turn and you can spend it as you wish. The time will be cumulative and after end turn cklick its given 3-4 minutes to your timer.
A second problem seems more difficult. Playing without QS with Warmire we played with more than 50 moves and would have played even more if I had not delayed the time [smile] 50turns * 3minutes * 2players = 5 hours. I don`t think that anyone can survive such a long game, and this game can happen. It should be possible to transfer control of the game to long control at some moment or freeze and postpone it.
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Ganeleon

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Reply with quote  #35 
The cumulative time is a good idea. I like the system 10 starting minutes (should be customizable in a game setup) + 3 minutes per turn (should be customizable in a game setup). Also you can add some time for player scores for example divided into 10 (It will give from 20 to 150 additional seconds). I am not sure how easy it will be to update the web server game timer based on the date from the game save.

The second problem sounds not so serious for me as I believe that it is not so hard to make pause/unpause functionality for eaach player. When both players pressed pause the game is stopped. The same should be done to start it again. Like to triggers. So just the action is done when both triggers changed to different meaning. 
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Ganeleon

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Reply with quote  #36 
Also for the "fast game mode"

- can you please make the after turn "observ" choice in the dialogue window  

- it would be nice to enable auto "save check" when you ended the turn and just observing the strategic map, while your opponent is . It would be good to check the game let's say every 20 secs in the backgrounds and offer the player to start the turn (to offer the dialogue only in the case that his turn started in the game he is now, but not the other). Preferably to make the notification with some BOOOM sound... so you can hear it 


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WarMire

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Reply with quote  #37 
+++ Great change to the network list. no more wondering which V to load  [thumb] Love it
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WarMire

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Reply with quote  #38 
[biggrin] Wow i 'hate' to commend you 2x in row - but i just now see the view feature ! 
Perfect ! no more, no less. Thanks a bunch 


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Baruk

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Reply with quote  #39 
Guys, thank you for great ideas and feedback. I am going to add 'observe' button to End Turn Dialog and enable auto-refresh feature in 'View Only' mode. 
Also, please be aware that there's a bug related to 'View Mode'. It happens when you view the game and then go to main menu - > network game list and then continue the game fetched from server. Game will become unplayable. So use this feature with caution. [smile]
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megas

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Reply with quote  #40 
@Toxaz @Ganeleon 
I will implement a simple "fast game mode" on the battle server. Initially lets make it available only for private game mode as it will be quite hardcore. It will allow to select turn limit in hours and minutes. Web page will show timer until end of turn (already done). I guess pause feature will also have to be implemented otherwise it can be insane if the game takes 30+ turns and the first one to fall asleep will lose [smile]) Later on Baruk will add support for the fast game in the game too. Also I like the idea of cumulative turn limit. Both in fast game mode and in normal too! I guess with time some bonus days can be added, so that they are consumed if player has them and runs our of time. 

@Herystofanes
A lot of great ideas. I guess mage is the easiest feature now as we already have something. But what I personally liked most in this discussion and what I would like to see in some nearest future is the summoner - unit that will summon beasts and also probably turn himself into a beast too for some time! I would vote for this one to implemented before others [smile]
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Ganeleon

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Reply with quote  #41 
Summoner is cool I agree, after the changes mentioned above I vote also for this unit. 

Cumulative time for the simple game mode with the time limit of 24 hours is great. But I would avoid to transfer all the time left. May be half would be enough. Also is a good question if it should work with the 3 days limit. Can you imagine that someone has a month of time for the turn in a late game [smile]))

Also I would like to discuss how to develop the slave master/ He was made by my initiative, but as I can see he is not finished as he is nearly useless. (Only to speed up the production in mines)

As an improvement proposal I would like to ask to show in the spell and skill dialogues to show the amount of mana or MP required for action. Overwise without an ability to take a look into the game code strategic planning is nearly impossible...
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Herystofanes

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Reply with quote  #42 
Ok. It took me some time to to get back here. I've promised a grey human topic, so here it is:

Reputation between -50 and +50 (it could be extended so the neutral/evil (-100 / -50) neutral/good (+50 / +100) would have some "grey area" with no full "usefulness")

I view them as "free men" close to the nature. Some could say - barbarian. They benefit not from numbers (like dark human) nor from healing/elite abilities (like good human). If the bad human is close to the dark side and good human is close to the dwarves, the grey shuld be close to the (not yet implemented) elves. Possible units:

Javelinier - elite light swordsman (accessible by the same kind of building like Guardsmen)
What's new? ... a javelin - one time use in combat ranged weapon. He should be able to throw it from short distances (not like archer). Possibly he should not be quick enough to use it agains cavalary (they would close the distance before he would throw it). As a light unit he would be able to have only light shield/armor. The javelins capacity could be limited to 3-5 pieces before restock.
Pros:
- javelin = +/- ranged unit
- still light unit
Cons:
- should be able to recruit only in threes (not doubles or fours)
- javelins cost more so - an expensive unit
- should not have shot volley skill (on global map)
- still not good against cavalary

Traper/Hunter - elite light archer (accessible by the same kind of building like Guardsmen) - basicaly better achers but they could not wield a shield at all (preferably they would be more skilled with knives or swords), move in woods/hills should cost one energy for them. They could have new trap skills like snares (only applicable in woods and hills), and active ranged ambush skill (shoot one prepared volley on enemy turn) - it should be only avaliable when these units are in hills and woods.
Pros:
- Good forest unit, eg. for fighting with bandits
- should have some initial expirience in bow and knives/swords
- new Traping/ambush abilities
- still light unit
Cons:
- should be able to recruit only in threes (not doubles or fours)
- should cost more than archers (excessive/longer training)
- in open fieled they work like archers and are only more expensive then archers
- their usability would be limited to forest/hills
- could not wield shields (should not be even able to obtain apropriate skill)

Barbarian/Berserkers - light or very light unit - should be able to wear no armor (maybe only light helmet), definately no shield but they should be quicker and wield some kind of double hand weapon (or even choose from great sword/great axe/big club or mace) - more damage and more chance to destroy/damage enemy armor. They could be very vulnerable to cavalary and archers so I propose 2 traits skills:
- Sturdiness - even if the units energy drops to 0 once in a battle for 5-10 in battle turns this unit acts like it would have positive energy (he does not tire easily).
- Last swing - if the unit hit points drops below 0 he drops to knees (can not move on the battle screen), stays alive for one turn in which he can engage nearest enemy one more time and then drops dead (if another unit will succesfully strike him while he is on his knees he would die without additional strike). This skill should not be activated after being striked by charge (from cavalary).
Pros:
- light unit
- high damage
- should move slightly quicker on battle field
- should be able to shatter enemy armored units armor quicker
- should have higher health than avarage unit (but not to much - lets say 5-8 hit points)
Cons:
- should be able to recruit only in threes (not doubles or fours)
- no or very light armor
- susceptible to cavalary/archer formations
- should not be able to perform any in game tactics/formations - only run straight and fight the enemy 

As for the magic or magical users (only between -50 and +50 reputation):

From temples - healers/herbalists instead of priests
Very supportive unit: no instant heal, instead:
- passive recover 1-5 hp between turns for entire stack (not cumulative with other healers/herbalists) if the unit is in the same stack,
- cure poison for 1 unit in stack (random),
- brew a "no thirst" potion for one unit - skill (for the next 1-2 turns food counter for this unit does not drop).
Unit does not fight with magic - in combat he should have a club or something similar 

From magic towers - druids
Magic:
entangle - one enemy unit move/energy is reduced by 80 % (spent on getting out of entanglement )
banish abomination - one random undead/deamon is banished from enemy stack
Shapeshifting - druid shapeshifts into one of selected animals:
Hawk - aleardy in game,
Wolf - aleardy in game - should be able to attract another wolves into wolfpack - shapeshifted druid would be an aplha,
Bear - should be slower than wolf (0.75x) but with more health (2x) and little more damage (1.2x)
After shapeshifting druid will have only half his move and energy from before shapeshifting - it is only possible to shapeshift once per turn and only two ways: man form into animal and animal into man form - no animal into animal shapeshifts.
Magic would be accesible in man form. He should be able to stack with animals regardless of form, enemy should not be able to recognize if an animal is a shapeshifted druid or a regular one (apart from bear obviously). On the battlefield in man form he should fight like other wizards. Magic should be available only in man form. In this form he should hae concealement in forest (and maybe hills)

Let me know what do you think [biggrin]
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Ganeleon

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Reply with quote  #43 
The idea of a druid is great. The shape shifting would bring some interesting strategies.
Also I like the idea of javelinier - actually I have offered already that unit but the problem is in the limitation in the current battle mechanics - it does not support different range of weapon.
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megas

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Reply with quote  #44 
A lot of great ideas Herystofanes! Actually a concept, not just ideas. This actually looks like a whole new mini race, rather than just an update of existing one...

I like all of the units you suggested and skills are good too:

* Javelinier - great idea and also I know Baruk likes it, definitely can be done.

* Hunter - in general I like to develop the concept of all kinds of rangers and other covert ops units that can sneak and do nasty stuff in enemy rear.  

* Barbarian/berserk - great unit, especially what I like is the skillset (ability to fight even tired and last swing skill, also I would make them very mobile).
Berserk is a concept we already have actually to some extent - Dark side can produce uruk-hai with 2 swords and no shield. Also some dwarves get berserk skill - meaning when they are close to being killed, they throw their shields away and start dealing double damage, also their hit points increase, but after battle return to normal and if they are negative such unit dies next turn.... Having written this, I started to think that berserk uruk-hai should actually get berserk skill (currently they seem underused because of the vulnerability)!

* Herbalist - I like the idea, I think it is not right that priest is the same currently both for normal and good human. So priest in this context I see as an evolution of more basic herbalist.

* Druid/shapeshifter - this is my favorite. I like a lot shapeshifting and all nature magic, I think it will fit very well into the game. And also very fun that he can shapeshift into some existing unit, so enemy can not distinguish if it is shifted or not.

My general comment is that we can make those changes both based on alignment (good example is herbalist - priest), but also based on some kind of guilds of fractions that the player will join. One good example here I think is the choice of magic school. Here we can have some selection - for example light magic or nature magic or maybe elemental magic. So given the choices player makes by choosing guilds and by changing alignment, human race can be very different. 

My vote would be to first do the druid, but it actually seems like the hardest one to implement? Interesting what Baruk would say on this topic [smile]


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Baruk

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Reply with quote  #45 
I think we'll go with the concept of different guilds, which will be available to different alignments. Player will be allowed to join couple of guilds and hence modify own strategy. Some guilds will be exclusively neutral. Players will be expelled from the guild if player alignment changes.

Shapeshifting is great concept. We also had plans for it (warlocks turning into demons, werewolves). Unfortunately, we don't have the unit art for this "free men" unit line (druid, herbalist, bears, hunter). We need to wait for our artist to draw these units.

But we can start from barbarian units. We had plans for nomadic cavalry and highlanders:human_nomad_cavalry_front.png  human_nomad_cavalry_skir_front.png  human_highlander_front.png   

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